Muslim Marriage: Bio Data Gone Bad. Freckles Responds

by HijabMan :: posted 31 July 08

HijabMan’s Note: The following is a guest post by Freckles in response to the Muslim Marriage Monster article below this one.

As a European-American convert to Islam, my road towards marriage has been a rather rocky one. I converted at 19 while attending college in a sleepy Southern town, and had no intention of marrying at least until I finished grad school or medical school. My conversion was and still is unknown to my family, primarily because I feared being judged, ridiculed, and (worst of all) disowned. Naturally, I knew if I married a Muslim, that there would be conflict with them, but I decided to cross that bridge if and when I came to it. I felt that a marriage should be an equal partnership, and I knew that anyone I married had to respect me as an equal and treat me accordingly. I fully expected to pursue my education, start a career, and God willing, succeed whether or not I married.

Immediately upon conversion, I started getting pressure to marry from my community. Far too many aunties boasted about their successful sons within earshot and then casually asked me if I was looking for a husband. That song and dance got really old, really fast, especially when I learned that some of these sons were literally twice my age and lived in another country! Thanks, but no way! I had befriended a young Egyptian man that I worked with, and he was an enormous help during my early days as a Muslim. He taught me the first chapter of the Qur’an and explained some of the intricacies of Islam that baffled me (“You mean…you have to make ablutions after you fart?!”). Subsequently, a number of sisters told me that if I planned on continuing my relationship with him that we really should marry in order to avoid any appearance of impropriety. “Appearance?! Why should I care about appearance?” I asked. I knew what was right and wrong, our intentions were good, and I felt that marriage was something not to be rushed. Despite being a Southerner, I wasn’t too keen on doing things only for the sake of appearances. However, I did not yet have the strength of conviction nor the amount of knowledge of my religion to debate with these women. We ended up having our wedding ceremony at the mosque a few weeks after my conversion.

Right away, I knew I’d made a mistake. His personality shifted dramatically, and not for the better. He had misrepresented himself and his level of education to me. He claimed to be a chemical engineering student at the same university I attended, but as it turns out, he was merely a drop out from their English language learning program. He pretended to have a great deal of ambition, but all he ever seemed to aim for was keeping his minimum wage illegal job at a local fast food restaurant owned by another Muslim from our community. I knew I was in trouble, and I had no idea how to get out. My family certainly was not willing to help me. I told my parents about the wedding and my mother called me a whore and didn’t speak to me again for a month. My relationship with them suffered for a number of years after that incident. As the months went on, my husband became increasingly controlling, jealous, and violent. One night when he left in a rage, I packed a bag of clothes so that I could leave to stay with a friend, in a shelter, anywhere but there. When he came home and caught me trying to leave, he rammed his fist straight through the wall of the living room. When asked about the patch in the wall, I had to make up a story involving the ironing board and me tripping over a shoe. It was a long time before I could bring myself to tell the truth. Few of my friends knew what was going on, though I suspect the others knew something was wrong but didn’t know how to broach the subject. The violence in the relationship only escalated, and I continued to have no idea what to do.

His family also became problematic. His mother was a lovely woman, and I to this day hold her in the highest regard. His father, on the other hand, was a different matter. He made frequent extended visits Stateside, and I never understood why he came so often for no apparent reason (and stayed for weeks on end). Then I discovered through a friend that he was having an affair with a woman over here, under the guise that he was divorced and came over here on “business” frequently. When I learned my husband was not only aware of this, but approved of it, I left him. I couldn’t spend my life with someone who could condone such immorality. The leaders of our community were quite supportive and gave me guidance during this time. My family happily helped me move, and I was finally free.

I realize that some of my fellow Muslims will say, “Fear God, sister, why do you air our dirty laundry? Everyone will assume from your story that ALL Muslim men are abusive, controlling, violent, insert-‘Not Without My Daughter’-stereotype-here!” My answer is this: Some Muslim men are wonderful people, some are monsters, but their religion has nothing to do with it. Would we so easily say all Christian men are uneducated, sexually repressed, hypocrites? Certainly not! There is a diversity of experience within any group, and my description of one man should in no way be taken to represent all men. He was simply juvenile, insecure, and unable to get over his own pride, end of story. Add a few cultural hangups in there, and you have a rather vicious recipe for disaster. I certainly do not blame Islam for this failed relationship. However, anytime one adheres to a set of rules blindly, no matter the intention, bad things can (and often do) happen. Had he been a Christian/Buddhist/Pastafarian, we still were incompatible, and our relationship STILL would have failed. Ultimately, personal compatibility is key to making any marriage work. Some of us learn that the hard way.

In the aftermath, I began to wonder if I would ever find someone. I knew that next time I had to be very careful, and I questioned the idea that I had to marry another Muslim. So long as my husband did not prevent me from fulfilling my duties to God, why was this a problem? (My own so-called Muslim husband drank, used illegal drugs, cheated, lied, and didn’t fast or pray, so I’m not sure how he could have benefited my religion more so than another, more upright man.) I felt that even if children came into the picture, that raising them in a multi-faith environment would only strengthen whatever convictions they developed. I know this is akin to heresy in some Muslim communities, but I saw from my experience and that of others that doing things “the right way” didn’t always turn out so well. I made the executive decision to choose my next partner on his personal merits and not rule out most of the decent eligible men in my area simply because they did not share my faith. I wasn’t opposed to marrying a fellow Muslim, but I certainly wanted to keep my options open. Five months later, I received a message one of my social networking profiles saying that I seemed like a “person of substance” and that my profile picture (me on a camel in Egypt) was “stunning.” I was intrigued, and felt like the time had come to move on with my life. I responded, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Our relationship certainly did not follow the traditional path taken by most Muslims, but I do not apologize for it. We dated for a year and half before getting engaged, we met each others’ families early on in the relationship, and there were no secrets (a refreshing contrast). On our first date, I told him about my faith in the interest of full disclosure, and he seemed very open minded about it. Before we ever met in person, I told him about my past, and he did the same. Most of his friends were women, and I think that helped him to be a more sensitive partner. He respects me for who I am, and I feel incredibly lucky to have found someone so wonderful after the strain I endured for nearly 2 years. Our marriage is based on understanding, respect, and love, which is a blessing for anyone.

Is my life perfect now? Of course not, but it is pretty wonderful, all praises due to God. When a sister at the mosque asks me if I’m married and I respond “Yes, I am,” the next question is always, “Is he Muslim?” When I respond in the negative, the reactions are varied, and usually unfavorable. I know that if I were not American that this would never be a question, and while it bothers me, I never confront anyone in her assumptions about me, my skin color, or my nationality. It’s awkward, but I feel like I made the right decision for myself, and so long as I live my life with the intention of following God, I can stand strong in my decision. As more children of Muslim immigrants reach the age of marriage and find themselves falling for people of various faiths and nationalities, this sort of arrangement will become more common. For now, I strive to live my life in a way that demonstrates that “The Straight Path” can sometimes take other directions. May God bring us all happy and fulfilling marriages, ameen.

yasmine at 31 July 08 :: #

Such a great post. And so intense. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your journeys and experiences, Freckles!

I have a few questions, and they’re none of my business to be asking, but I’m hoping that, since you’ve already shared so readily with us, you might expand on your post a bit more.

Would love to know more about the day-to-day aspects of you, as a Muslim woman, being married to someone who belongs to a different faith/spiritual tradition – or perhaps someone who does not at all adhere to a specific faith tradition.

Do you two attend services and events and gatherings at one another’s respective houses of worship? Do you get a feeling of community and shared experience during Ramadan, or do you lack spiritual fulfillment (and essentially, the community that seems to be such a hallmark of Ramadan) if you’re the only one fasting in your household during the month?

And what about children? If you were to have children, would they be raised as Muslims? Or as belonging to both your and your husband’s faiths? Or to ALL faiths? Or will you leave it to them to choose their own personal spiritual paths?

Sorry for all the questions. I don’t personally know any Muslim women married to NonMuslim men, so I’m highly intrigued, and would love to know more about how this all plays out for you.

I would like to demand (read: request) a follow-up post! =)
yasmine at 31 July 08 :: #

oh, PS: as for this part –

When a sister at the mosque asks me if I’m married and I respond “Yes, I am,” the next question is always, “Is he Muslim?”

people like that need to be stabbed.
that is all.
Freckles at 31 July 08 :: #

Thanks for your questions, Yasmine. I’d be happy to answer your questions here or in a follow-up post, whichever Hijabman would prefer. I think it’s important for people to realize what it’s really like, and to dispel some of the myths swirling around in the community (i.e., “He won’t allow you to practice your religion!!!”).

As to your follow-up comment: LOL! They just about stab a hole through my face with their eyes. awkwardanduncomfortable.com!!!
Hijabman at 31 July 08 :: #

Frecks, go ahead with another post if you’d like :)
Allegra at 31 July 08 :: #

This is an excellent article and something I have pondered myself for a while now. Amongst my friends a lot of us are now weighing decisions are far as Muslim or non Muslim? There is such a negative stigma when it comes to something like that. So many times people just try to hook me up with someone because they’re Muslim regardless of whether we are compatible or not.

I agree with Yasmin, Iwould love to hear more about your day to day.

If you don’t mind me asking do you cover? If you don’t is that something you and your husband have discussed?
TMoney at 31 July 08 :: #

Thank you for your honest and heartfelt posting. My wife is a convert and I know too many horrifying stories to write in this short space.

My question is how you navigate the predominant weight of scholarly consensus based in Qur’an and ahadith regarding the state of your current marriage – internally.

How you do it, day-to-day, without feeling like what you’re doing is illegal and sinful? Clearly, there isn’t a dominant opinion in our history that supports your lifestyle and I’m sure a lot of people, when they find out, treat you un-Islamically, to say the least.

Lest I am pounced upon by violent verbiage, see: “people like that need to be stabbed,” let me say that only God can judge any of us and I’m only asking you a question.

[I’ve posted a link – click on my name – to an answer given by Khaled Abou El Fadl. I don’t think the guy is the best for me, personally, but he has a great summary on the topic of marrying non-Muslim men and non-Muslims, in general – I recommend the read]
Hijabman at 31 July 08 :: #
TMoney stated, "Some are decidedly wrong, for instance, like your stance on offering women to lead, which has no textual evidence except for the limited situation of the woman appointed to lead specifically in her home where a man capable to lead was not present."
You know that Abou El Fadl holds the opinion that women can lead prayer right?
TMoney, I don't buy the whole 'men's and women's roles' thing, much anymore. Marriage, now, is about companionship. I don't need my wife to cook and clean. I do that just fine. Many women don't need a man to financially provide. They do that just fine. This is one of the reasons my friend called off his wedding. While he respected her opinions, he is not the one for her. He could not marry a woman who says, "I don't want to be expected to work, I don't want to be expected to contribute, and it is none of my husband's concern what I do with my money." I'd agree with him. For me, both parties in a marriage should use whatever resources they have to make things work, emotionally, financially, time-wise, etc... with the understanding that these roles flex according to circumstance (children, various emotional states, their own preferences, etc). For instance, my mother will often mow the lawn. My father will often vacuum or do some dusting around the house. I don't believe that it is wise for men or women to choose the most convenient bits of various systems...traditional and modern systems that benefit themselves, in a marriage. It smacks of selfishness, to me. I'm also not a fan of using specific verses or the term 'islamic' to justify one's self, as the concept of 'islamic' is made up of a spectrum of valid opinions. This is why I find it quite funny that in one post, you'll dismiss my belief as 'decidedly wrong' but also suggest readings from a scholar who holds that same belief. Marriage is now about companionship, partnership. And traditional roles aren't necessarily valid (though they do work for some). I don't buy Shaykh Hamza's explanation, either. As far as the gendered aspect of this...In my experience traveling in Muslim circles and knowing quite a few men and women, I can say that I would not suggest most Muslim men our age as good companions. I do, however, find plenty of responsible, genuine, and communicative Muslim women. As I've stated on my blog before, I have a principled approach to the Qur'an, that is how I live my life, and many of the verses you speak of are contextual. Ultimately, marriage should be tranquil, and peaceful, and both parties in a marriage should be a garment to one another. I just don't think that happens when people are rigid in their ideas about gender roles, and are stuck on notions of proper 'islamic' this, and proper 'islamic' that. Much love HijabMan
katiktuni at 31 July 08 :: #

Thanks for sharing Freckles. This topic is particularly interesting to me, because it came up in my Sunday school class that I co-teach with a friend. A student asked us if it was okay to marry a non-muslim man. Being the two most liberal muslim teachers she’s ever come into contact with, I think she was expecting an easy answer from us. But, it wasn’t. It was one of the hardest questions we’d ever been asked. We based most of our lessons on an article by Abou el Fadl, http://www.scholarofthehouse.com/oninma.html . We followed that with a month’s lesson(not enough) on the pros and cons of marrying a muslim, jew, atheist, polytheist, christian—we took into mind laws of each respective faith, what it would be like to raise a child within each relationship, how we would celebrate holidays within each relationship, what we would do if our spouse decided to become more or less devout in their practice, or what if they became literal in their interpretations of religious law, how would their families respond, how would the community respond. Of course, the students were a dynamic part of this process—we didn’t just dictate to them the pros and cons. In the end, we came to the conclusion that it ultimately would be within their best interest to marry a muslim man. But, that being said, it didn’t completely sit right with me, and I think we need to revisit the topic. Because, life is not so black and white. I look forward to hearing more about your experience. Salaam
rawi at 1 August 08 :: #

This was an utterly remarkable story and I want to thank Freckles profusely for sharing it with us. I can only hope/pray that many others have a shred of the courage, moral strength, and honesty that you clearly embody in your life.

BTW, I’m with Yasmine. I also want to (metaphorically) stab people who ask “is he Muslim?” Very bad, especially as you know they wouldn’t if you were a fellow brown Muslim sister.

Katiktuni: It was interesting to read about your experience discussing the issue wiht students. I think I would also begin to stammer when asked the same question. But, reading through your comment made me realize something: all the potential issues and problems that you mention aren’t applicable only to a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man. They would be just as true of a Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman (at least in this day and age of marriage as equal partnership in which the man doesn’t rule by default). And that’s why I think the Muslim community, and especially the rank of our scholars, seriously needs to begin rethinking the traditional consensus.
Sarah at 1 August 08 :: #

Freckles – I don’t know if you’ve read the book “Living Islam Out Loud: American Muslim Women Speak,” but I think your story fits in with the spirit of that book so perfectly (I highly recommend this book to everyone). I greatly appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss such a sensitive topic. As for people complaining about “airing our dirty laundry,” they need to be stabbed too…just kidding. But really, this is the only way the issues we face will ever be dealt with truthfully.

I agree with Rawi that scholars really need to rethink the traditional consensus on this issue (and a Whole Lot of other issues while they’re at it). I am grateful to know of at least one scholar besides Dr. el-Fadl who has openly questioned the issue, and while that doesn’t seem like much, it’s at least a step. I personally don’t see why an intelligent, devout woman like you who has clearly thought deeply about her decision should fear the possibility that she might be living in sin, like someone before mentioned, but just to point out, minority opinions do count for something, even if they’re from only one scholar. Just because the majority of scholars agree on something, that doesn’t cancel out all other opinions. And by the way, it’s ridiculous to take a consensus that was made centuries ago regarding a social issue and apply it to today as if nothing has changed. No scholar in their right mind should do that; it’s flat-out irresponsible, yet very common among today’s scholars.

Anyway, going back to the general muslim marriage crisis issue, part of the reason for the crisis may be the fact that Muslim men can basically marry whomever they want, yet Muslim women are being limited to Muslim men. I’ve seen a lot of good Muslim men marry non-Muslim women, and I’m not trying to say that they shouldn’t have, but the reality is that this leaves that many fewer Muslim men for the Muslim women, and it’s a serious problem. Perhaps allowing Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men will actually help the situation. Either that or polygamy…Totally just kidding. Also, a lot of women in my community have married men who converted basically for the sake of marriage. That’s another way to do it without getting cut off from the community.
TMoney at 1 August 08 :: #

HijabMan, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I didn’t post the Abou El Fadl piece as anything other than a good summary discussion on Muslimahs marrying non-Mulims. And it is a good summary – he covers the history of the opinions and shares his take on it and tells readers to do what they think is best. He actually doesn’t recommend it at all, but doesn’t prohibit it. Now I don’t have information on his qualification to offer such an opinion, but I posted it, nonetheless. If you read it, which I’m assuming you did, you should think the same thing: it’s a decent summary.

On to your other point, him approving of women leading prayer is irrelevant to this topic and my challenge to you in the other post is not problematic because I don’t claim to be an unflinching proponent (or even a proponent) of Abou El Fadl, nor did I cite Abou El Fadl in that respect.

If you’ve read Abou El Fadl’s posting on women leading prayer, it’s hardly Nomanic in nature – he shows evidences, and then offers and qualifies his opinion as in the minority and historically so. He dissents from the majority for his own reasons and it’s a free world, he can do that. But I, for one, am not about to cast my vote on his behalf against valid scholarship that outweighs him. And that doesn’t make me inconsistent or close-minded or un-modern, it’s what I’m comfortable with having read the available opinions.

Now your dismissal of Shaykh Hamza’s explanation, I hope, is after having listened to the CD, because if you heard it, you’ll see that the point in question about rijal being qawwamuna ‘ala an-nisa` relates to whether a man undertakes his Qur’anically and prophetically mandated duty to take care of and provide for the entire household.

Yes, HijabMan, that’s our job as men – and if we don’t do it, we are sinful. Too bad if you don’t like it or think it’s inapplicable. Or maybe you want to say that the modern day realities of socioeconomics changes religious obligations – I think that’s what I’m getting from you?

How about a thought experiment: the workweek here is Monday through Friday, so we need to consider the obligatory nature of Friday prayers.

Call me unreasonable, but your reasoning has no reasonable end if you don’t hold onto specific injunctions of the texts with some level of firmness and basic understanding.

I’m sorry to hear about your friend having to call off the marriage because the reasons put forth by his then-fiance, but you know what? She is completely justified and not a thing you can make up about what the state of the modern world is can make her blameworthy for feeling entitled not to have to contribute financially. It’s her right! Now, he may end up with someone who is perfectly willing to provide in concert with him, maybe even to a greater proportion than him, but whether through his ignorance or her graciousness, he's still the one who’s responsible. Now if you think this is made up by me, I have nowhere else to go with this point.

Your examples about how men should help with housework are silly because this is an obvious part of being a husband that anyone who knows a shred of the Sunnah knows: the prophet, upon whom be the peace and blessing of God, helped immensely around the home. He was above all a partner with his wives – this is how we should be – but do you hear any stories of his wives paying their own rent or having to make their own ends meet? All Muslim men should be partners in the domestic world – but no women should ever believe that their money is indefinitely necessary to support the household. Hard times may befall a household and Allah will deal justly with everyone according to their sincere efforts, but if you, the man, aren’t busting it to make sure your wife doesn’t need to feel that obligation, that’s an unsafe state to be in.

Example, I lost my job, my wife has one: Every month that she pays rent or buys groceries or pays utilities I will not only repent for, but will repay her and she can forgive me because she loves me, but I will still pay her back. You know why? Because it was my job to provide and I am trying every day to get a job. And what’s more, we have a joint account for all my money and all her job earnings go into an account only in her name. This is not because I think she has a role and she should stick to it, this is because I respect that her role in our life is not obligated with the same responsibilities as me. Modern Day or not, this doesn’t mean the man shouldn’t strive to be the one who provides!

Do you, conversely, think that all female “traditional roles” can be shared? Would you like to switch roles and bear children instead of your future, insha`Allah, wife? Would you like to produce breast milk…would you like paradise under your feet? Nothing you can possibly do will attain any of the above.

Now, readers may find most of what I said just now to be outlandish, but why should biology somehow confer a finality the discussion? If you want to share the religiously mandated responsibilities, then share them all. And yes, bearing children, once their conceived, is a responsibility of the woman that can’t be removed biologically. (Of course, this brings to light whether paradise is under the feet of the modern phenomenon of surrogate mothers…)

The fact is there are divinely designed differences in the nature of men and women, spiritually and physically. If there was not a difference, why does paradise exist under our mothers’ feet and not our fathers’ feet? Why do women bear children? Why do men have testosterone and women have estrogen, in predominance? Modernity does little to extinguish the penchant of natural spirituo-physiological distinctions in the genders.

If we take your line of soft and “modernizing” definitions on the roles and responsibilities of spouses and keep away from these so-called “rigid” or “traditional” definitions, you will have to ignore a whole lot in the Qur’an and Sunnah and extant scholarship to bolster your claims. And it’s not as if this stuff hasn’t been addressed. We just don’t read Arabic anymore, so we think we’re smarter.

e.g. Hanafis established the validity of praying while airborne several hundred years before airplanes. How? because they determined that air must consist of some kind of matter and if there is some way to be firmly placed upon it, then prayer is valid upon it.

None of what I’ve said implies that women can’t earn or work or be professional or whatever they want in this dunya, but what you’re saying has only a subjective basis and hardly relies on study – you assume that past scholarship has never addressed or hasn’t adequately addressed these issues just because you don’t have an English translation in your hand.

And in either case, this is a complete digression from my honest interest in how Freckles deals with a lifestyle that is disapproved of in the majority of scholarly opinions from the beginning until even today and how that affects her communing with the Divine.

While I agree with a prior post that minority opinions exist for a reason, my question on personal spiritual resolution of a controversial lifestyle is not only valid but worthwhile to ask.

After all, we can string together all the minority rulings in the world and create a pretty interesting lifestyle if we so desired.
Noor at 1 August 08 :: #

I am also a Muslim woman married to a non-Muslim man. According to the sisters in my community, I am living in sin.
Sarah at 1 August 08 :: #

While this seems to be a debate going on between TMoney and Hijabman, I’d like to butt in because – what can I say? – I’m nosy. I can appreciate that both of you have very different ways of approaching this issue, and while I tend to sympathize more with Hijabman’s way, I can understand where TMoney is coming from. But I have to question this statement:

“If we take your line of soft and “modernizing” definitions on the roles and responsibilities of spouses and keep away from these so-called “rigid” or “traditional” definitions, you will have to ignore a whole lot in the Qur’an and Sunnah and extant scholarship to bolster your claims.”

You know what other issue requires that we ignore a whole lot in the Quran and Sunnah and scholarship in order to make any sense of it in a modern context? Concubinage. I’m not going to pretend that I know a whole lot about scholarship or the reasons why the Quran states that men are allowed to have sex with their female slaves (and how on earth that is not considered adultery), but from what little I understand, it has something to do with this prevailing idea that men have a stronger sex drive and therefore concessions have to be made for them (are you kidding? that after four wives a man would still need more?) – which is a biological justification. Now, we’d be hard-pressed to find people living today who would not see this situation as adultery (except maybe in Saudi) regardless of whether they think a man’s sex drive is so much stronger. It’s an example of how humanity’s views of the dynamics of marriage have changed over time. Honestly, I have a hard enough time reading those verses in the Quran, that the only way I can get through them is to completely contextualize them. I don’t think that if the Prophet (saw) were living today in America, that he would approach this issue the same way he did in 7th c. Arabia. As a human, he did not exist in a vacuum, and therefore much of what he did Was influenced by the culture in which he lived. And if the Quran could not relate directly to that culture as well, then it would not have been effective in communicating its message. I’m not trying to say that the Quran isn’t universal, it is, but there are parts of it that relate specifically to the culture that directly received it – that has to be the case to some extent for anything to be received by human beings, because we’re bound by time and space.

Going back to the issue at hand, I’m just having trouble understanding why the traditional understandings of gender roles have to be seen as so immutable, and therefore why a couple that decides that the husband will stay home and raise the kids while the mother works (which was Dr. Ingrid Mattson’s situation while she was getting her PhD, btw) has to be seen as wrong. While a traditional set up might be fine for one couple (and I’m not trying to knock on those couples at all), a non-traditional set up might be better for another, and so why is that wrong? There is so much in the Quran and Sunnah that is contested by scholars, esp. regarding gender roles. Take the issue of two female witnesses being equal to one male witness. Dr. Umar and others contest this, which I can explain if you want, but this is getting long and I have to get going. Looking forward to responses.
katiktuni at 1 August 08 :: #

Noor: I am interested in hearing your story as well.
TMoney: I’m curious about your stance on gender roles. A woman’s biology is not something chosen, whereas being the financial provider is, so I don’t quite understand the comparison of gender roles. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is valid to reinterpret gender roles given financial circumstance, whereas there’s really no way our mind can re-interpret something that our bodies have the ability to do. Yes, if you want to be nitpicky, men could get a sex-change, but that still doesn’t take away the truth that most women are able to reproduce, whereas men aren’t biologically equipped to hold jobs in any way other than a woman is. I do feel that a man should be willing to provide once child bearing/rearing begins, but prior to that, what would be a woman’s reason not to share in financial responsibility other than “I just don’t feel like working.” And, if a woman chooses to work during child rearing years, what would be the reasoning behind not using that money to help care for her own children?
rawi at 1 August 08 :: #

With all due respect, TMoney, I think what you don’t realize is that pretty much all the points you make are tired old arguments. This is particularly true of your resorting to biological essentialism. And one thing I really hoped you wouldn’t have done is giving the lame language excuse, even if as a minor point. If only we hadn’t heard this enough, the accusation of not knowing Arabic, or not “studying.”

BTW, I don’t know if this was the same tape referred to, but some years ago I saw a video in which Hamza Yusuf was commenting on qawwamuna ‘ala n-nisa and said that if the woman were the earner, the hierarchy would switch. I believe what he was implying was that the supposed superiority of men is not inherent or biological, but rather dependent on the man’s social role as breadwinner (which I’m guessing HY accepts as “Islamically mandated”). If we extend the reasoning, the truly equal partnership between man and woman would then be the one in which both are also equal players. (After all, we know that one of the key factors in most abusive marriages is the man’s monopoly over money, hence power).

Again, I would like to insist on this point: it is not “modern day realities of socioeconomics” that change “religious obligations.” Rather, it is the fundamental question of justice that should lead us to question traditional norms and values. This has very little to do with “religious obligation” per se.
Sarah at 1 August 08 :: #

Ya Rawi I heard that lecture on audio tape. Hamza Yusuf was saying that the word rijaal was traditionally not understood to mean “male” but rather a person who stands on his/her own two legs, (in modern arabic it means man) and so just because someone was a “dhakar” (male) that didn’t necessarily make him a rajul. A female could be considered a rajul as well. So like you were saying, he was arguing that the verse does not make the ruling on biological grounds, and that it was left vague for a reason (the vagueness has something to do with the grammar of the verse).

Good point about abusive marriages.

Noor – does anyone accept you or are you completely alienated from the community? How do you deal with that?
anon at 2 August 08 :: #

Great story Freckles. Sad to say but I had a similar experience with my Egyptian guy, even including several holes in our wall.
Just wanted to add to one of the commenters who asked about how the children will be raised in such a relationship… I personally know 4 couples where the husband is muslim and the wives are either jewish or christian. In all of them the children have been raised in the religion of the mother. Now a days I don’t think that that is really as much of an issue as it probably was way back whenever. Maybe because gender roles don’t seem to be as rigidly defined anymore.
HijabMan at 2 August 08 :: #

TMoney, by the tone of your response, I sense that I offended you. My apologies. I will not bother reiterating what others have said so far about your responses…

Frankly, it really is the tone with which you defend yourself and the liberties you take when attacking me that I take issue with.

Your opinions are just as valid as mine. It is when you label them ‘wrong’ despite them being valid opinions.

You are not a scholar of islamic jurisprudence, neither am I. So, what authority do you have to tell me something I believe is wrong? You don’t. In my view, you have the authority to pick from a variety of opinions (or come up with your own). You, however, do not have any authority to say what is right and wrong—- when it comes to me, or anyone else.

Unfortunately, many Muslims seem to believe they are all God’s voice on earth. They tend to use phrases like ‘basic understanding of islam’ like you and others have in this series of comments. They also seem to be quick to dismiss dissenting opinions.

What is most fascinating to me is your projection of some interesting things onto me. I never said your opinion of women not leading prayer was invalid. I also never stated that your belief made you unmodern, or conservative. Nor did I mention anything about my friend's former fiance’s beliefs being invalid, nor did I say that she isn’t completely justified in what she believes. The conflict occurs when you, her, and others do not believe that others opinions are just as valid and justified— instead going on your own tirade about what is ‘islamic.’ He didn’t break it off simply because of his own desires, but because he knew that she was feeling resentment just the same.. that he knew we didn’t have compatible beliefs on this fundamental issue.

That, and a slew of other reasons he chose not to discuss here. So, I’d ask that you please read and comprehend what I have said before you go on. You have overstepped your bounds.

As far as your opinion on the verse in question. Notice, that the verse is not prescriptive, but descriptive, as Rawi and others have mentioned.

Men are the ‘maintainers/protectors/etc of women because God has given bounty on some more than others (paraphrase).

Also notice that the second part of that is gender neutral in the Arabic. God doesn’t say, Men Should Do This. God is quite possibly just stating a fact.

If it was a command of God, it would be stated as such, in my humble opinion. What I find amazing about islamic law is that men and women are allowed the flexibility to decide their own system.

Did Muhammad (pbuh) ask for forgiveness for being employed by his own wife? Was he expected, as an employee of his wife to maintain her? Or was she considered the maintainer?

There are opinions out there that relate this verse to that situation:

(71) And on some of you God has bestowed more abundant means of sustenance than on others: and yet, they who are more abundantly favoured are [often] unwilling to share their sustenance with those whom their right hands possess, so that they [all] might be equal in this respect. Will they, then, God’s blessings [thus] deny?
(An-Nahl: 71)

What I see, as the general thrust, as I’ve stated before, is that you (male and female) spend what God has blessed you with (not necessarily monetary, or tangible) so that your near kin, including your spouse have similar standards of living. To put it simply, individuals, in marriage and otherwise should use whatever resources God has given them to make that marriage and the lives of others successful.

The general principle, for me, is quite clear.

I don’t see your way as wrong TMoney, it is just not the way for me. Again, what I find problematic is that you treat opinions other than your own are as wrong and question people’s basic understanding of islam, and call them sinners.

From my vantage point, you definitely crossed the line into passing judgement. God’s domain, if you ask me.

Peace.
Noor at 4 August 08 :: #

katiktuni – it’s not really much of a story. We are both older – and have already raised our children – there will NOT be anymore, so that’s not an issue that comes into play. there is no worry about which religion we are going to raise the children in. The gender roles also appear, to outsiders, to be reversed. My husband, non-Muslim, telecommutes from our home. He has a fulltime job and works very hard, he just doesn’t have to leave the house. I leave the house everyday to work at my job. I make more money than he does. Also, He likes cooking and I despise it. I like mowing the lawn and he despises it. What’s all the big deal about gender roles and why not just find a compatible person and each do the chores/activities that you like and are good at. Why can’t they be complimentary. As for all the sisters who say I am living in sin with a non-Muslim man, well, at least he’s a good man, he would never stop me from practicing my religion, wouldn’t make a decision without consulting me etc. That’s more than I can say for some marriages I have seen between sisters and brothers.
maye at 6 August 08 :: #

i’m just butting in, another muslim woman here with a non-muslim. we plan to get married in a year.
TMoney at 6 August 08 :: #

salams – i’m getting back to this thread some days later, so i have rather quickly scanned subsequent responses.

as javed and i conversed privately, i sometimes prefer sharp statements in hopes of provocation of thought, so if anyone was offended, i apologize. but i like the subsequent posts.

just a technical note, sarah and rawi might be referring to different lectures because i remember the point of rijal standing on one’s two feet coming from a separate lecture some years back entitled rijal Allah.

regarding what rawi noted, my take home point from his lecture on that particular point of qawwama was that men need the qawwama to reach the same spiritual end point as females and that when a man is not able to fulfill his financial obligations in marriage, it is also to his spiritual detriment because it’s among the things he’s been obligated to do for the sake of his akhira.

he continues by saying that a woman’s home life and work therein is hadithically explicated as holding equality with male participation in the lesser (aggressive) jihad. he stated further that given the reality that most men would hardly ever be in a reality to face jihad, that women have an advantage simply in, say, the act of fixing a cup of tea, etc.

what i get from that is that women and men have been prescribed differently and are rewarded differently in certain arenas.

i think biological essentialism actually does have a place in the discussion and isn’t simply a tired old argument. taken in concert with spiritually known facts, it shows a difference.

i bring up paradise being under a mother’s feet because we should be able to ask why that is. could it be under dad’s feet? no? why not? when we ask why it’s under her feet, we know it relates, among other things, to the growing child she held inside of her for 9 months, nursed, and raised up in ways a father cannot parallel. if that is not a demonstrable interconnectedness of spiritual and biological skew, i dunno what to say – i don’t think it’s a stupid argument at all.

i just don’t see how male qawwama and it’s necessity to the male can be inverted when know of the asymmetry that male physical jihad and female housework bear equal weight.

i think what i’m saying is getting garbled because one might be thinking i don’t want women to work. women working, being educated, teaching, whatever – nothing wrong with it. what’s more, women should not be expected to run the house alone. in fact, they shouldn’t even be expected to run the house to nearly any extent according to some opinions.

i’m simply saying: should a woman provide for her family ahead of her husband? i’m saying i don’t see the long term benefit and i think it leads demonstrably to the worldly and spiritual emasculation of the male, among other things. i think male qawwama has been designated with hikma and if we are starting to invert that in our practices, we need to examine it carefully.

similarly, we have to examine non-Muslim males as voluntary choices by Muslimahs as a community. does the lack of good men make it halal? there’s maybe an opinion that says makruh and that’s it.

as an aside, rawi, i don’t think not studying religious sciences nor a lack of knowledge of arabic is lame to cite, as you say: on the contrary, our inability to access the cannon is part of our marked debilitation as a people. it has led to rampant speculative theology and an inability to recognize authenticity.

i think it underlies why this thread contains questions as to whether a man’s islamic duty lies in providing for his family. now, i am clearly not a scholar as javed reminded – and i actually appreciate that reminder, JAKs hijabman – but i simply don’t understand where we can come up with that contention, regardless of a marriage based in partnership and compromise and justice, etc.

anyhow, that’s it for now – but on a very serious note, hijabman closes by saying that i’ve gone too far in speaking for God when i’m in no position to do so and it’s a fair warning and i appreciate it.

Welcome! This site serves two main purposes: to entertain and educate the Believing and curious community, and to generate a bit of cash—God willing. But there’s a lot more about HijabMan.

Muslim Marriage: Bio Data Gone Bad. Freckles Responds

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